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Seth Colter Walls

The Huffington Post   walls@huffingtonpost.com

Zogby Says Political Junkies Should "Take A Deep Breath" On Polls

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June 16, 2008 11:17 AM


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How much stock should a political junkie put in any one poll? For the hardcores who live and die with each burp from Gallup, Rasmussen, or any other public opinion entity, polling icon John Zogby has some advice this season: take a deep breath.

"First of all, it's early," the President and CEO of Zogby International cautioned. "Believe it or not, there are a lot of people who are uninvolved. They're more in the center and less polarized, certainly than [voters were] in 2004, when we clearly saw American voters divided into hostile camps very early on -- over the war, over Bush, the 2000 election, lots of things.

"Combined with the fact it's early, that means that there's some floating taking place. It's remarkable, I've been watching this as I poll ... in addition to saying [to a pollster] 'I'm not sure,' people can say they are leaning one way and then the other over a short period of time."

But even beyond the extremely unsettled nature of public opinion this year, Zogby said news consumers should be wary of reading too much into any one poll, at any time. "I don't place too much stock into polls as predictive, anyway," he said. "They're more like a snapshot, a photograph of a moment. And it's possible to get two different camera angles [at the same moment] because there is that volatility. I try to make up for it by stabilizing my sample through weights. But that's a whole methadological thing. Quite frankly, we all get 'em wrong."

Referencing questions raised last week by The Huffington Post about the methodology behind the latest NBC-Wall Street Journal poll -- which purported to show a big lead for John McCain over Barack Obama among "suburban women" -- Zogby said he tries "not to lead with demographic subgroups, especially smaller demographic subgroups."

"So when I see, 'Oh so and so's ahead among women,' yeah, all right, I gotta look at the methodology. .. That's absolutely correct; it's worthwhile to take a look at those numbers. It's probably legitimate to ask 'Could Obama have a problem?' [with that group] and that it's something we may want to take a look at. ... But it's definitely a paragraph six [finding], and probably better to put in the form of a question."

But Zogby had harsher words for the media's increasing dependence on polls as the driver of campaign coverage. "I think it's become downright abusive," he said. "It's one thing for us to use polls to fill in the news hole. It's a whole other thing to just completely abuse them, and use them as firm conclusions -- and talk about tectonic shifts. The most notable sample in this [election] cycle was the two days leading up to New Hampshire primary. I got it wrong. I'm one of the guys who had Obama leading by 12. But in the last five hours of polling, I saw a surge for Sen. Clinton.

"I didn't know what to do with that. I didn't know if that was a trend, or an anomaly. It was only 123 or 124 people. Polling responsibly, I had to fold it in. That did not mean that it was legitimate. Then, for Keith Olbermann or Chris Matthews or whoever else to write Hillary's obituary -- 'What is it we're going to say about her 35 year career in public life?' -- [was premature]. You always have to let people vote. ... There's so much about this that has been sensationalized."

Asked about what would need to happen in order to correct the media's coverage of polls, Zogby said it wouldn't necessarily require a Herculean effort. "Let's assume the worst, which is broadcast news in particular. They're not going to have the time to issue the long disclaimers. But I don't think it has to turn into a Zoloft ad: 10 seconds of product and 50 seconds of 'it can cause death in farm animals'. On the other hand, the screens are loaded with information. I don't think it's a bad thing to say: 'Obama leads by six, and that's within the margin of error. And also understand, this is a snapshot of a moment in time. There are factors that can cause errors. It's early.'"

Until that happens, however, Zogby said he would simply advise voters to read several polls and try to capture the trends. "Be a good consumer," he said. "As with everything else."

 
 

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- nellie See Profile I'm a Fan of nellie permalink

Polls don't mean much when elections are rigged.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:32 AM on 06/17/2008
- johnwinner See Profile I'm a Fan of johnwinner permalink

Zogby is correct; the only poll that really happen gets taken on election day.
As to the map accompanying the article: this is pretty much how I read it too, although I would also argue that Obama might lose Ohio, but not PA, and he will win at least one of the Carolinas, possibly win an upset in Georgia.
Obama by a landslide.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:10 AM on 06/17/2008
- AnotherTry See Profile I'm a Fan of AnotherTry permalink

And what happens when California goes red?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzH6gAq6Wr0

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:22 AM on 06/17/2008
- nellie See Profile I'm a Fan of nellie permalink

Pigs will fly.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:32 AM on 06/17/2008
- AnotherTry See Profile I'm a Fan of AnotherTry permalink

That's what I said when Arnold announced his run for Governor. In fact that's what I said in 2004 when Bush said he could win reelection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzH6gAq6Wr0

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:53 AM on 06/17/2008
- JJK See Profile I'm a Fan of JJK permalink

He's right. We can't put much trust in these polls right now. They are very volatile and, if you look at the RCP averages over the last couple of weeks, Undecideds/Other have increased by nearly four points.

Everybody has their own opinions at this point and they are all subject to considerable error, but here is my, admittedly error-prone, attempt.

My view is that this early on National Polls can only give us a sense of the mood of the electorate and the potential shape of the November results. It's far too early to start thinking too much about the state polls, though tracking them is interesting. I think that we should expect Obama to build a 15+ point lead by August, but that we shouldn't get all excited when that happens. In fact, I had expected him to get a bigger bounce after he finally secured the nomination given how sick people are of Bush, the War, Gas Prices and the Economy. The fact that he can't get his RCP average lead much over 4 points is a little worrisome to me.

The first polls to mean anything, IMO, will be the ones that are taken a week after Labor Day. That is when the contours of this race will have begun to sort themselves out. By the end of September, we should know whether this is going to be another nail biter or a landslide, one way or the other.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:56 AM on 06/17/2008
- monique See Profile I'm a Fan of monique permalink

No! Chris Matthews and Keith Olbermann reporting something prematurely?

Or irresponsibly? Or illegitamtely? Or sensationalizing?

Keith Olbermann: Worst Person in the WORLD!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:38 AM on 06/17/2008
- atomic See Profile I'm a Fan of atomic permalink

O'Reilly lover alert.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:05 AM on 06/17/2008
- VivaZapata See Profile I'm a Fan of VivaZapata permalink

in a world polluted with stinkers like limbaugh and o'reilly, how you came to the conclusion you did is surprising. the now canonized but speak-not-ill-of-the-dead russert was far more blistering (during the national debate when real damage was done) against hillary than those two guys. he and chuck todd and lots of others never came across a poll they didn't quote.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:27 AM on 06/17/2008
- Thinkingclearly See Profile I'm a Fan of Thinkingclearly permalink

Why would a candidate EVER include "cookies" on a website - like anyone believes that a political wife really makes up her cookie recipes. I'm scared to death about McCain getting us into Iran, of Bush and McCain trying to foist 50 permanent bases in Iraq - stirring up that country again, of Afghanistan being taken over by the Taliban, of our national debt causing a further collapse of the dollar and wondering if I need to sell my house and move closer to town because I might not be able to afford the gas. If I'm checking the McCain website that's what I want to see.

If I decide to make cookies, I'll go to recipes.com - not Cindy McCain for suggestions.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:40 AM on 06/17/2008
- funnyguy See Profile I'm a Fan of funnyguy permalink

Someone's math is wrong: Aren't there 535 electors in the Electoral College, not 538?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:55 AM on 06/17/2008
- robXdion See Profile I'm a Fan of robXdion permalink

No.

270 is the target number. It's 50.2% of 538.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:58 AM on 06/17/2008
- Sioen See Profile I'm a Fan of Sioen permalink

You heard it here 23rd (or second, or 100th, depending on how much reading and thinking you do), and you don't need a poll to tell you:

It's gonna be a landslide.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:34 AM on 06/17/2008
- JJK See Profile I'm a Fan of JJK permalink

...hope you're right, but it's way too early to say.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:31 PM on 06/17/2008
- OhReallySheSaid See Profile I'm a Fan of OhReallySheSaid permalink

Didn't Zogby's final poll in 2004 have Kerry up by 20 electoral votes at the end? Oh, never mind.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:25 AM on 06/17/2008
- randyjet See Profile I'm a Fan of randyjet permalink

Stealing elections as in Ohio does not count. Another anomoly is that of the fanatic religious right which came out in huge numbers out of all proportion to their numbers in the population group.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:13 AM on 06/17/2008
- NTO08 See Profile I'm a Fan of NTO08 permalink

He's admitted errors...all pollsters have to...that's why both sides need to sit back and stop wishing scenarios will go their respective ways.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:04 AM on 06/17/2008
- Waterbug See Profile I'm a Fan of Waterbug permalink

We really need this one not to be close at all. Here's to a resounding Obama win in 2008. Obama (and whoever Obama wants as VP) all the way!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:59 PM on 06/16/2008
- KarateKid See Profile I'm a Fan of KarateKid permalink

If Pennsylvania and New Jersey go red, I'll eat my pants. Turn those two states blue and what you have is a landslide, WITHOUT Florida. And I wouldn't count out Missouri, Georgia and North Carolina, either. Add those three to the blue and you have a wipe out.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:48 PM on 06/16/2008
- dartagnan See Profile I'm a Fan of dartagnan permalink

Zogby also has NJ going for McCain. That is even more bizarre.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:36 PM on 06/16/2008
- buckbuck11 See Profile I'm a Fan of buckbuck11 permalink

The Lieberman effect.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:07 AM on 06/17/2008
- dartagnan See Profile I'm a Fan of dartagnan permalink

That's an interesting map, but I don't see any way in hell the Democrats are not going to carry PA. They've taken it in every presidential election since 1992.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:35 PM on 06/16/2008
- angryliberal See Profile I'm a Fan of angryliberal permalink

And who won in 92? Oh wait, never mind.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:40 AM on 06/17/2008
- mbrownNY See Profile I'm a Fan of mbrownNY permalink

PA was pretty tight last time. i don't see how NJ is going to go red!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:56 PM on 06/16/2008
- SolarPowerGuy See Profile I'm a Fan of SolarPowerGuy permalink

Ditto on the New Jersey vote, I thought that a red New Jersey was weird, and I logged in to comment on it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:57 PM on 06/16/2008
- MinYee See Profile I'm a Fan of MinYee permalink

Fine article. Enlightening, with sober judgement.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:18 PM on 06/16/2008
- KarateKid See Profile I'm a Fan of KarateKid permalink

Yes, especially for the Republicans.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:24 AM on 06/17/2008
- tylerwest See Profile I'm a Fan of tylerwest permalink

Obama is a poor candidate and is going to have a tougher time that he thinks in states like MA, RI
and NY. He didn't deserve this nomination and hasn't done anything to deserve my vote. I guess democrats are the stupidest people on the planet. We lost in 2000, 2004 and this year when we could have won, we let ourselves get shot in the foot by kids on college campuses and african americans.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:16 PM on 06/16/2008
- Celliott See Profile I'm a Fan of Celliott permalink



Tyler,

As an African American woman, I no longer get upset when people make outrageous comments. However, Obama won the election fair and square. He ran a better campaign and outperformed Hillary. You have to look at the totality of the race, not just the last few contests. By the time Hillay realized what happened it was too late.

If you think that Obama won by just kids in college and African Americans (who happen to be just 13-14% of the overall population), you are pretty ignorant. Obama won because whites, blacks, seniors, college kids, code here: many constituencies voted for him. In fact, I myself, was on the fence until my white (yes) friends convinced me that Obama was the better candidate. And, I was not convinced until I walked into the voting booth on Feb. 5th.


Also, he will win NY, RI, MA (particularly, if Mitt is McCain's VP) Mitt left MA as an unpopular governor. You've been watching too much TV and not doing enough critical thinking!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:53 AM on 06/17/2008
- TrueIndy08 See Profile I'm a Fan of TrueIndy08 permalink

tyler... you have to be the stupidest person on the planet... yeah, I think that suits you!

Are you not aware that AA have been the MOST LOYAL voting block for the DEM party.... no DEM president wins without carrying that vote...

Bill CLinton won bc he got almost 90% of that vote.... he definitely didn't get the majority of the white vote.... but why would you worry yourself facts.... you would rather come spew your ignorance all over a blog!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:05 AM on 06/17/2008
- GeoLee See Profile I'm a Fan of GeoLee permalink

What happened to the AA vote of 90 % in 2004? We know in 2000 that they helped Gore win the overall vote and were actively stopped in some sates, but the fact of the matter is that they have been 90% of Dem vote since 1968 and we have only had three terms of democrats in all that time, so maybe the white vote counts more after all. We may not be able to win without them, but we sure can lose with them when we don't have enough white or hispanic votes to go along.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:33 AM on 06/17/2008
- cobobs See Profile I'm a Fan of cobobs permalink

"deserve" is an interesting choice of word. It is often used by those who really meant to say"entitled".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:13 AM on 06/17/2008
- heal57 See Profile I'm a Fan of heal57 permalink

Excuse us tylerwest, but the 'kids' and the 'African Americans' have as much of a right to vote as you and me. I am not a 'college kid' or an African American'. I'm a 63 year old white woman who wants a better life for my kids and grandkids. Obama definitely deserves the nomination and he will be president so get over it.

Independents for Obama '08
Women for Obama '08