McCain: I'd Spy on Americans Secretly, Too

Hmmmm, didn't even know there was a republican canidate running for prez. guess you learn something new every day.

I guess accountability is only something us non-rich folk have to deal with.

Brain washing sux and makes people do and say crazy stuff "Mao rules" right johnnyboy?

Yeah, slimy but not entirely unexpected. Once more, that's why Pelosi and House Dems should push hard for a "exclusivity" provision...eliminate this huge Article II blank check for domestic military (intelligence) operations!

War? What war? We are NOT AT WAR. We have some military actions going on and all kinds of RHETORICAL wars - war on drugs, war on poverty, war on teen pregnancy - but no declared wars. So, what law gives the president all these powers for a RHETORICAL war? Why dont we just declare war on bad thoughts and be done with it?

Obama.

'Nuff said.

December 2007:
"There are some areas where the statutes don't apply, such as in the surveillance of overseas communications. Where they do apply, however, I think that presidents have the obligation to obey and enforce laws that are passed by Congress and signed into law by the president, no matter what the situation is."
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/specials/CandidateQA/McCainQA/

I think people need to start waving Queen of Hearts signs at McCain rallies...

We are at war. The "rhetorical" wars are legal wars, not rhetorical ones.
They are genuine declairations of war. You just haven't had the pleasure of ever seeing one up close.

They push the limits of authoritative control domesticly as being a state of emergency allowing the use of martial law powers outherwise unavailable. That is why there is a war on drugs. A war on the poor, a war on education. a war on the weather, and a war on the middle class. I am pretty sure they started a major war on hunger recently.

The hungry will fall like bowling pins before our mighty onslaught! Go! John McCain Go!

I love the Republican idea of 'accountability' here. We'll hold hearings and say that what you did was wrong (but please do it again if we ask you to).

Want a president even weaker than Bush?

Vote McCain

Depends on McCain !!

Wait a minute. Are you telling me that a politician has lied?!
NEWS FLASH!!

Yeah, I suppose that for govt. to have no idea of what is going on in the US is good stuff! Hear that future 9/11 bombers! The dumbass libs have their arms (and likely other body parts - pew) wide open fa ya!! Just ram them bombs right in (-: b/c all they care about are their dirty little secrets (NAMBLA, etc.) and damn it, the world must revolve around them b/c, well, b/c they're just so much more intelligent than the teeming masses.

the far right republican base is an albatross around the neck of john mccain. it acts as a severe form of dementia and crutzfeld jacob disease in his brain. he clearly has his own ideas, but yet he insists on pandering and flip flopping. until he understands this and trusts himself, he will be just another republican candidate like all the rest - 4 more years like the last 8. a freaking disaster. 12 years closer to oblivion...

poptones: "we are not at war" - oh, but we are. Have been for ages, really. Look in the Federal Register for all the presidental declarations of "National Emergency" - something which the courts have held, when they've bothered to think about it, essentially lets the president rule by fiat.

Every single president in the technological era has done this. It is not news. There is nothing to see here. Move on and let us continue spying on you. Aside: If you really believe this will change based on who you elect, then you deserve to be spied upon.)

Because your are just ignorant. The Democratic presidents spied on people more than any repugnician. They are all complicit. Just liek they both vote for continued killing of foreigners. Our founding fathers would totally dissavow the actions of the bipartisan actions of congress today. It is simply shameful. They'd better hope there is no gehenna. To kill innocent children abroad with a penstroke is the ultimate evil. At least Hitler had the temerity to bring them to destruction gathering centers. We do it by video-game remote control. And we call ourselves civilized. Makes me sick.

Yeah, maybe if they stopped spying on us they could spy a little harder on other countries. You know, like the ones our enemies are hiding in. Then maybe we would find that osama guy. Maybe they could even identify our enemies before they got to our shores. How does it go? It isn't something like, we should spy on them over there so we don't have to spy on them here? Their spying has gone past the point of protection. Bush and McCain now basically amount to everyday voyeur panty sniffers sticking their nose where it doesn't belong to get a cheap thrill. Since they want to be all up in our business maybe everyone should just send the white house some dirty panties. They can have a good old time with themselves then. They'll be in heaven.

@cyberian

Really, now... we are not at war. You are absolutely correct... we are in a "confict"... just like the "Vietnam War... ahem... conflict).

I'm laughing... along with the fallen soldiers. (and yea, I can say that, because I have lost many friends, brothers, sisters, etc... I wore the uniform, and put my boots in the "sand box" in 2003) President Bush, declared the END OF WAR in 2003, just short of six months into the invasion of Iraq... how do I know this... because I was there. When Pres. Bush declared the "end of war" , we had to adjust how we engaged our targets. Once the Pres. said the war was "over with", we started seeing an increase in SOLDIER and CIVILIAN deaths.

This entire "war" has been lead by people that have no clue as to what is going on... I was a soldier, but to claim that I can run a Fortune 500 company, would serve as mockery. I don't have the skills necessary to do so, but we (yes, us... the people) elect people to run the country that have no skills necessary to make the appropriate decisions... that is truly "funny".

Since everyone thinks we are still at "war" (Congress did approve the invasion into Iraq during 2003, and all the senators are now spinning their "speech" to say that they did approve based on information they were given... which leads to HOW they got this information, and HOW they USED the information... eh... that is another speech)... End all be all, we are offically in a "conflict" and NOT a war... even though we are still losing American lives and Iraqi Civilian lives... and we can not even be on the same sheet of music..

We have our own thoughts of how things need to be conducted, BUT...
HOW MANY PEOPLE PAID TRIBUTE to the fallen soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines on Memorial Day... Very few!

Long post, but damn... every one has something to say, but no one wants to address the issue. Let us find a way to fix it.... wait a minute, it is easier to complain about the situation.

You fruity liberals might get your way if Obama is voted in as prez in Nov. A REAL catastrophe in Iraq if we pull out all at once, a gay bar on every corner, higher taxes, no resolution to the gas/fuel issue, radical groups empowered, France and other country's deciding how we protect our selfs.. Need I say more. Obama is a borderline kook. You will all see...

Wow, can Wired spin their liberal views on any MORE issues? McCain clearly isn't installing any new wiretapping, only continuing previous wire tapping(which believe or not was done prior to the Bush Administration).

You liberals are seriously grasping for straws.

Dear Moonbats,

If you're not guilty, what do you have to worry about? I guess the concept of 'datamining' has little relevance to Mr. Singel or his faithful legions who delve into apoplectic spasms over the mention of 'Republican.' Whatev, don't let facts or reason get in your way.

You would gladly see other Americans die for political gain rather than tolerate reasonable intervention on those citizens' behalf. IMHO, you, Mr Singel, are the problem with this country.

Here in Canada, McCain is a brand of French fries. Oh, sorry, freedom fries.

Mmm. This president is crisp on the outside, hot and moist on the inside. Delicious with ketchup.

Koo-Koo-Ka-choo. The next constitution-burning, psychopathic, hallucinating, kill America to save it, career public official may step up to the mike.

Dear Adam,

Did you _really_ just use the line "If you're not guilty, what do you have to worry about"?

Last I checked, the fourth amendment applies to everyone-- not just criminals.

Jack, Carson and Adam are right. You should all willingly submit to government surveillance like good Americans.

This not only runs afould of laws and courts, but it runs afould of the Coinstitution. That trumps any givernment actiuon, after all the Constitutuion is what grants the executive branch its right to exist.

This is not a repub pres vs. Congressional laws or the dem courts, but rather this is a repub president violating our social contract. This is small cocked McCain vs. Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Hancock, Adams etc. This incorrect idea needs to die and die hard!

And to think, just a decade ago everyone was up in arms when the biggest "crimes" the President was committing were related to getting he@d in the oval office. Oh the simpler times of yesteryear....

"Shocked" - thank you for your service, bud. I can tell you that we paid tribute here.

As for the rest of you: grow up. Seriously.

You are simply fantasizing if you think that the executive branch gives a damn about your conversations. To the extent that wiretapping was authorized and leads pursued, it was and has remained in the service of ferreting out attempts to recreate 9/11. For Christ's sake, how do you endure the slaughter of 3,000 innocents by religious extremists and then blithely stick your head in the sand and claim that Bush is the danger?

After YEARS of Islamic attacks on US interests here and overseas, the administration - with the blessing of congress - took the fight to the various sources of terrorism (not all, but many). The result? NO attacks on the US and a dramatic fall everywhere except the killing grounds we've given the jihadists. Al Queda is now largely discredited throughout the Muslim world for the barbarity exhibited in Iraq. Even some of its former leaders are calling on the extremists to lay down their arms and recognize the emptiness of their cause.

Do I hear ANY recognition of this? Do I hear ANY recognition of the soldiers and Marines on the ground bringing hell to those who would murder children in cold blood to sow a civil war? No. I hear claims that these brave souls are the real problem. I hear claims that we're not safer but that "Bush and McCain now basically amount to everyday voyeur panty sniffers..." as if you have ANY clue what the real target, scope and extent of the wiretapping has entailed.

Again: grow up.

The Obama Victory Speech.....
.....gave me chills.
We now are one step closer to the socialized society we are steadily becoming. The remark on the socialized health care just makes me sick.
Democrats want to help the poor by stealing from the rich.
Democrats want to bail out the idiots that can't read a contract when buying a house.
Democrats want to steal the profit margin from oil companies which will just be passed on to the consumer for the loss.
Democrats think government is the answer to all things. The Republicans are really the ones to blame for this too.
They had 8 years to pass the line item veto, term limits, permanent tax cuts, tax reform, social security reform, you name it, they F%Ked it all up and went power hungry and screwed there base and themselves.
Of course we were headed in the direction of an authoritarian big brother state and now we will shift gears and head to a socialized big brother state.
Well, it was a good run but it seems that true Americans have lost out to the power hungry politicians and are headed (one way or another) to a full on nanny state.
Oh, and if your household makes more than 75K a year, you are considered one of the rich by Obama so get ready to bend over for the tax man because he is coming to town.
America - where if you are successful you will be punished and the sweat from your brow and your hard earned due shall be given to those who did nothing to deserve it.
Tell me? Where is our voice when the majority is in on the greed and wants to steal the spoils from those who have worked for it.
What are "WE THE PEOPLE" going to do?

“The great object of a free people must be so to form their government and laws, and so to administer them, as to create a confidence in, and respect for the laws; and thereby induce the sensible and virtuous part of the community to declare in favor of the laws, and to support them without an expensive military force. . . . A wise and honest administration, may make the people happy under any government; but necessity only can justify even our leaving open avenues to the abuse of power, by wicked, unthinking, or ambitious men. . . . “ -- Letters From the Federal farmer No. 3

There's nothing conservative about wanting to grant the government or the executive branch of the government unconstrained power, even when those who insist on that power strive to convince us that we can't feel terrorized enough.

We're still being misled by the executive branch and by most of Congress about the extents of past, ongoing, and planned domestic surveillance and collection of personal data. Who will break the pattern?

unlimited executive power in time of war + perpetual state of war = dictatorship

Hey McSame, were they appropriate pre 9-11 because that's when all the this began.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Ben Franklin

very deliberately misleading or at the very least super-sensationalized headline. What can I say, this is a blog. The standards of journalism do not apply here. Go read the Economist for some real journalism.

You people better WAKE UP
Spying on Americans Can and Is a Good thing especially if they are Muslims in America!
They have a Agenda of taking overthis country.
Its Europe first then America.

If you dont believe me just look at Detroit and Deerborne Michigan and get ready for them to Invade your neighborhood.

In the 1940s we Stopped the Terrorists from invading from with in by putting them into Interment camps we should seriously start thinkingabout doing the Same thing NOW!
There is No such thing as a Peaceful Muslim! Mark my words you will wish you had listened to them in 20 years!

The Reality:
I don't care if you spy on me. Come on. You want wiretap to hear me and the little lady have a little phone sex? Does that get you hot? Do you want to know every little thing about me? All my little nasty details? Why don't you just come over instead? You can come sniff our panties too you little voyeur panty sniffer? Do you want my number? You can get all up in my business since you're such a spying perv. I don't want to keep any secrets from you, you little nasty. You want to wiretap my PC and see all the nasty position we do it in that we've taken pictures of too? Is that what gets you off? I have no problems. I don't need any privacy from you or the president. Why don't you both just admit that's why you support it? You want to listen in on everyone's phone sex too. There isn't any reason for you to get upset. I know it gets you so hot you little perv.

@The Reality:
Im sure glad that racism hasnt stopped in america. Up in canada, we get along fine with other cultures.. even go as far as celebrating them once a year in my city. Its despicable and i hate it. Id much rather cast every innocent individual into a broad evil stereotype... it helps me sleep at night.

@everyone else
as i am not an american, this hardly affects me, but i feel that there are a couple of critical issues here; one of which hammerpocket touched on.

To declare unlimited executive power for a president (who has a fixed term in your system) during a war (which can be declared by a president) is madness. If you cannot understand why that is such a dangerous position, do not bother reading the rest of my comments.

The second issue is about the "temporary" disregarding of the rights and freedoms of privacy, granted to you by your constitution. That is another slippery slope. The fundamental principal of your justice system (and any justice system which values fair and due process) is that one is innocent until proven guilty. Once one is proven guilty, many of his (or her) additional rights go out the window, until such time as the powers that be decide that they are reformed (obviously not the basic rights of hummans, but thats a question for activists). The problem with survelance (sic) is not a problem yet (to my knowledge) but could quickly become a problem. How long until they broaden the term "terrorist" to include peer-to-peer sharing programs? (not long if the RIAA has anything to say..) how long until they install security cameras in public areas, such as the streets or parks? (again, that could be tomorrow... see the artical on the billboard that watches you...) how long until they decide that every roadway needs to be monitered to enforce traffic laws? all of these could (and will) be argued to the positive, but with each step, americans (and as a result, much of the western culture eventually) lose privacy and freedoms. imagine in 15 years when every transaction is an electronic transaction, and your pay is accuratly recorded, as well as every expense. There will be no more cheating on taxes (and i know something like 80% of americans cheat on their taxes) because they will already know everything about your life. The point is, the slippery slope of ignoring your rights, constitutional or otherwise, cannot be allowed to happen without checks and balances (if you look at the system that was designed, the 3 branches of government were designed to be that for each other) otherwise, we are on our way to a type of world best described in Ray Bradbury's Feirinhieght 451 (sic).

crap.. it took out my /sarcasm tag after "it helps me sleep at night".

now i look like a bigot... im really not..

stupid html tags...

Amazing that McCain took nearly his entire speech tonight to TRY to distance himself from Bush 42. Then he turns around and says he has objections to the part of the Telecom bill that does NOT offer immunity to those companies that did not comply with the law which congress passed and which was in force at the time the Telecoms turned over the stuff to Justice illegally. If McCain is comfortable with the notion and that now, he supports no amnesty and later later if he should he elected President, he too will ignore the law. Bush and mcCain sould like brothers in crime. McBush errrr I mean McCain. Electing McCain means 4 more years of Bushie malfeasance as the saying goes in my circle of friends. Throw the bum out, I say.

:-)
A picture speaks a thousand words, doesn't it?
Are you *really* trying to imply that the Maccain dude is really *that bad*?

All candidates are going to "reserve the right" to run their own programs when it comes to domestic spying, and if you don't think that Obama wouldn't keep in place what is already there you are naive. We as citizens need to stand up and say no, we need to march in the streets, at this point talk is cheap. If you aren't willing to take it upon yourself to fight the government on this issue then you have no room to talk, because your talk will always fall on the same deaf, apathetic ears that was once yourself!

McCain FTW! ;D

Obama FTL :(

@curio50, adam, etc.:

Your opinions are contrary to those of the liberal-commie-fascist regime that is about to take power. I'd be careful what I say on the phone, if I were you.
Did you consider that every power you grant to your guy is going to be given to the pinko socialist homosexual president that the ignorant non-dittoheads elect? Say one ill word about the People's Health Collective and you'll be rounded up for reeducation.
Shouldn't you be seriously worried about this, or is all of your rhetoric about other views just hyperbolic bullsh*t?

They were a little slow to get here (waiting for talking points), but the knuckle dragging neocon bedwetters are out in force on this thread now. And they are throwing about those mean and hurtful insults like moonbats, homos, socialists, fruity, fascists (really? fascist?), commies etc.

Is that how you guys learned to debate in high school? Have you been to high school? C'mon, you can do better than that.

P.S. Yes we all know how presidents have abused executive power over the years (ESPECIALLY Bushco), but to openly campaign on how he is going to continue breaking the laws and flouting the constitution, McCain is taking us to a new low in our descent to Banana Republicanism.

McClone is just another manufactured Fascist Right Wing anti-freedom RepubliKon politician that will say anything to appease followers the for votes. McClone represents a fake democracy. War is peace.

In the words of GWBush - "there is such a thing as too much freedom". It doesn't get any more blatant as that.

Looks to me like the fracturing Republican party means McCain is having to flip-flop.

Let's hope the Dems hammer him for all he's worth over this.

Some of the quotes are horrifyingly, stupendously paranoid and stupid. Good god, if you're that retarded, you don't deserve a vote.

I wish I could distinguish between presidential candidate McCain and the real John McCain. I really liked McCain before, but now many of his statements contradict what he had said previously. I'm not interested in what he says to get elected, I want to know what he'll really do once in office. Right now, I think he's the only one who knows.
McCain is not another Bush, he is not a neocon. In the past he's taken positions and sposonored legislation that was bypartisan and was in direct opposition to the conservative agenda.
Obama looks promising. I'm always impressed when I hear him speaking, whether it's in speeches or interviews. However, his Senate record doesn't really mesh with his rhetoric about unity and bipartisanship. Maybe it's because he hasn't been a senator long enough, or maybe he's full of it and is just saying what people want to hear. I'm not certain.
Also, seeing some of the comments posted here scares me much more about the ability of voters to make informed and rational decision than about what the elected politicans will do once in office. Most of you might as well be replaced by chimps that are trained to go down the ballot and simply vote for one party or the other. It's apparent you don't actually look at the candidates.

Over the years as I've heard these debates rage on, it is always talk of war this, talk of war that, but is the U.S. really in a "active wartime" situation? Yes, I'll grant you the War on Terrorism, but by de facto, that would mean War on Drugs, as that is also still going on, but there is no war in Afghanistan, there is no war in Iraq, mere occupations. Now hold your horses before you all go jumping my back.

The war in Iraq ended after the capture of Saddam Hussein in December of '03, so here we are, almost 5 years later, still "fighting." Yet if you look at the monies being paid to those who lose loved ones in combat, they are that of a peace keeping force, not of a soldier lost in the heat of war. I know this because I've lost several friends to the war effort and am appalled that the mass media and the government both toss around the word war like it is something that we are still involved in when we aren't.

As such, McCain's statement is both upsetting and unnerving, just as Pres. Bush is with his statements about monitoring the American people in a war time situation, so I ask you, what war George Bush? What war, John McCain?

Every time I see McCain, I can almost hear the chant "FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS!"

Why do people keep invoking the President's war powers when we are NOT AT WAR?

To be at war requires a declaration of war by Congress. It also requires a definable enemy. What we are in is a bad conflict - but it is one that will go on forever. We will never again not be "at war" with terrorism. To say that the President's war powers apply in this situation, is just to call them ordinary Presidential powers, not special war powers.

I love this guy! He says stuff that sounds like the truth. I won't vote for him, but I feel comfortable in knowing that, when the red states are all tallied the guy in charge will at least be a straight shooter.

McCain is evidently running for Dictator. If only Obama were pro-life so I could have someone to vote for. Unfortunately we are only given the choice of War or Abortion. The Establishment prospers on death and intends to feast for the next four years. But then I guess it is their country. The powers that be have made that abundantly clear.

well, im not voting for a black guy.. so mccain wins by default..

McCain will spy on American secretly, and Americans will vote against him publicly.

Here's a refresher for those who missed the what came out right after the NYT finally published the story in December 2005 after sitting on it since BEFORE the 2004 election.

A collection of Congressional testimony, lawsuits, and CRS reports regarding not just warrantless wiretapping by the NSA, but also warrantless surveillance and infiltration of peaceful citizen's groups by the 902nd Military Intelligence Group from Ft. Meade - the home of the NSA.

These documents were widely scattered in pdf form without links. Now this collection is in html form with links to citations and supreme court decisions. It is downloadable.

http://thewall.civiblog.org/rsf/nsa.html

I hope someone uses it to fight for the reinstatement of Constitutional Law.

Cheers,
-dcm

Obama will spy on Americans...Hillary will spy on Americans...The only difference is McCain has the cajones to admit it. Believe me, every phone call you make is monitored....EVERY PHONE CALL. Each call goes through a computer which looks for certain key words or phrases. Big Brother is hard at work protecting us from ourselves.

If anyone thinks a President Obama ("Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life") will do any differently, then you've picked a bad week to go off your meds.

If he thought it was necessary, his AG will give him an opinion supporting secret wiretaps, & the Obama-wan ("Help me Obama-wan. You're my only hope.") will justify it to show he's strong on national defense, and the telecoms will help him out.

And...if there is another terrorist attack, the Obamessiah will impose civil liberties restrictions that will make Bush look like a piker.

Whats scary to me is that you all in support for Barrack Hussein Obama, really truely deep down in your tiny little hearts and minds think Barrack Hussein Obama is going to do anything different! He is a tax and spending hippy hell bent on one agenda liberalism! aka Socialism! You Obama supporters are so narrow minded and stupid!!

Well, it isn't up to the president to enforce the law on himself. He can choose to follow the law or not, the same natural right every American has. It is up to others, in this case Congress, to force the law on the president. So far Congress has decided not to enforce the law, just like the cop that finds a couple kids with some MJ can decide not to arrest.

Voice of Reason: "McCain is not another Bush, he is not a neocon. In the past he's taken positions and sposonored legislation that was bypartisan and was in direct opposition to the conservative agenda."

I suggest reading the following column from Juan Cole (a professor of history at the University of Michigan for 24 years). McCain is quite the neoconservative, supporting right wing extremists in Pakistan and supporting covert funds to what would eventually become the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

http://www.juancole.com/2008/02/mccains-holiday-from-history-in.html

Obama! "My Grandaddy was in WWII!" Ever wonder why he keeps saying that ad nauseum? Because the President is also "Commander and Chief" of all US Armed forces. What does Obama know about the military he aspires to lead? Nada, zip, nothing - the guy was probably never even in the boy scouts (a sexist organization if there ever was one - lol) heaven forbid he associate himself with anything like THAT! But,he goes to listen to a racist minister for 20 yrs. This guy is "an empty suit" if ever there was one. McCain is obviously far from perfect (who is?), I'm more than a little nervous about his seemingly lib immigration ideas (I think we have quite enough immigrants for now who need to assimilate, thank you) but at least he has smarts and experience (dummies don't live long as fighter pilots in combat). He doesn't need to talk about his grandaddies military contributions (hoping we will somehow associate that with him). McCain has put his money (life) where his mouth is and lived to tell about it, Obama is, like most libs, a phony at heart (if he even has one), my Grandaddy indeed!

McCain is a Manchurian Candidate who hates America more than even Brezhnev did. Anyone who hasn't figured out that McCain is a closeted communist who 'turned' during his captivity in North Vietnam is a complete and total idiot.

Scat: Your use of Obama's middle name is a transparent attempt to smear him by association with those whom he has nothing to do with. It provides no substance to the debate.

Obama does not want to raise everyone's taxes. I'm pretty sure he understands that you simply cannot tax the middle or lower classes any more than they already are taxed. Now if you're wealthy (as in, several hundreds of thousands of dollars per year kind of wealthy) then you might have to worry about him raising your taxes (oh noes, you can't buy another Ferrari because the government thinks you should be helping your fellow citizens).

If you think we shouldn't raise taxes at all, perhaps you should take a look at the national debt of 9 trillion dollars. Perhaps you should take a look at the hundreds of billions of dollars of debt that we owe to China and other foreign nations so that we could finance the War on Terror with emergency supplemental bills (as opposed to factoring it into the budget, like a responsible leader would). If anything, the Republican deficit-spending approach should be classified as "tax your children and spend".

It's okay, though. Obama will fight for you, even though you fight against him. When he wins the general election, you will share in the benefits as well.

DCX2: You are one crazy-ass socialist, who has absolutely no economic training who just spouts random crap they hear from other crazy-ass socialists about the economy. Obama will serve no purpose other than to further drive our debt up(which isn't even directly caused by the taxing on the citizen level) with his lack of experience.

Hardly. The Obamessiah believes inthe following: "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"

A. Magnus - duh, what's your point? Are we suppposed to believe you just because, is that it?

"Turned during captivity," "closet communist?" Talk is cheap. Where is your evidence? I mean solid irrefutable stuff, not made up and hazy he said she said, or some obscure partisan news story (we all know how professional and unbiased the media is - lol) which I suspect is all you've really got.

The guy put his life on the line for his country, what have U ever done besides talk foolish?

Carson: I think it's interesting that you can consider me a socialist. I have discussed none of my views other than that the rich, owing their riches to the society they live in, ought to more actively participate in ways to benefit society, rather than concentrating their riches for themselves and their heirs to the detriment of the rest of the world.

I think it's also interesting that you replied with zero facts and even some lies. Obama supports PAYGO - Pay As You Go. That is in comparison to living beyond the country's means (i.e. deficit-spending, as the Bush Administration has done, also what I call "tax your children and spend").

You also call into question his experience. I find this interesting for two reasons. First, JFK was 43 and pretty much everyone agrees that he was a good President. Obama is 46, and has spent more years as an elected official than Hillary Clinton has. Second, it is not the experience of the President that counts, but rather the experience of his Cabinet. Take a look at the Bush Administration and their "experience" and the "experience" of his cabinet (many of which were around even during the Reagan years; decades of experience).

Please look at the following? It will show you how much we owe various countries. This is directly from the government itself, not some "crazy-ass socialists".

http://www.treas.gov/tic/mfh.txt

Note how we owe 600 billion to Japan, 490 billion to China, 202 billion to the UK...

Next, I encourage you to look at the effects of emergency supplemental spending bills, which are primarily how the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are funded. Look at the consequences of using emergency supplemental spending bills, as opposed to factoring those costs into the federal budget. Then see if you can connect the dots between our massive foreign debt to China et al and the emergency supplemental bills.

I encourage you to use your own resources for research so as not to force my "crazy-ass socialist" resources on you.

Hey Singal - way to corrupt his statement. Hope you hack up Obama statements the same way. Otherwise your credibility goes down the can.

Hey Singal - way to corrupt his statement. Hope you hack up Obama statements the same way. Otherwise your credibility goes down the can.

Hey Singal - way to corrupt his statement. Hope you hack up Obama statements the same way. Otherwise your credibility goes down the can.

Hey Singal - way to corrupt his statement. Hope you hack up Obama statements the same way. Otherwise your credibility goes down the can.

Carson: I ended up doing some more research for you, since I have my doubts about whether you would do your research.

Here is the Government Accountability Office (GAO) report on supplemental spending bills.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08314.pdf

Things to make note of:

-The amount of supplemental spending spiraled out of control after the Republican Congress let restrictions on supplemental spending expire in 2002.

-In May 2007, Bush signed the biggest supplemental spending bill ever, at $120 billion. Compare this with ALL of the supplemental bills of the mid-late 90s (which saw interventions in Iraq, Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, and Kosovo) costing about $13.8 billion.

-GAO concluded that "continuing to fund GWOT [Global War on Terrorism] through supplementals reduces transparency and avoids the necessary reexamination and discussion of defense commitments and funding tradeoffs."

In addition here are some "crazy-ass socialist" resources that analyze excessive supplemental spending and its effects.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/125438.html

http://www.ombwatch.org/article/articleview/4196/1/533

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I think john Mcbush will make a good leader, but than adolf hitler was a good leader too. Any connection?

LOL, Of Course he would. Anything Dictator Bush wants to do his "mini-me" McBush is going to want to do. What a joke. How can anyone in their right mind consider McBush for RPesident I dont know.

JT
http://www.FireMe.To/udi

Adolf Hitler was also good at giving speeches just like Obama. Any connections?

If people want the US to go the Euro way of being soft on terrorists and appeasing them so that they don't hurt us, then please do ahead and vote for Obama.

If people want to push the terrorists to stay in their own backyard and not come to the US with their destructive ideologies and intentions, then there's another choice.

Vick: I suggest looking up the term "blowback". Generally if someone is willing to kill themselves to hurt someone, they must be pretty pissed off. If you think it's because of jihad or because they get virgins if they're a martyr, then I think you are underestimating your opponent (and any competent general will tell you that's dangerous)

The best way to avoid becoming the target of terrorism is to stop doing things that piss people off. Blowing up their buildings and their power plants, killing innocent families and children, putting entire neighborhoods behind a wall, supporting dictatorships like Musharraf (who dissolved the Pakistani Supreme Court because they ruled against him!), stop funding covert wars like Iran-Contra/Nicaragua, and Pakistan/Afghanistan (did you know that back in the day al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and Osama bin Laden were trained and supported by the US government?)

This isn't about going soft. This is about ending hostilities. You can't tell someone to stop fighting, and then punch them in the face, and act surprised when they hit you back.

Don't you people see? The terrorists hate us because we are free so our loving imperial federal government is working to make us less free so they will hate us less.

"The best way to avoid becoming the target of terrorism is to stop doing things that piss people off."
...
And that is not appeasement? We won't pursue our national goals because they might piss others off.
...
We won't pursue missile defense because the Russians will get pissed off.
...
We won't pursue securing our energy SLOCs because it might piss off the Iranians.
...
We won't support Britain because it might piss off the Argentinians.
...
We won't forward deploy the military at Guam and Japan because it might piss of the Chinese.
...
We won't use the word "jihad" because it will piss off the jihadis.
...
We should just crawl under a rock and be thankful that we have a rock to crawl under. Right? Sorry, I choose not to believe the bullshit that only if the US limits its freedom of action and acts like a docile little pet will everyone love us and we won't have enemies.

The US must maintain its right to freedom of action against anyone that threatens us. And if others threaten us, we have to have that fight on their soil and not ours. If we become insular and wait to be attacked, then the fight is already lost as the fight will take place on our soil. I'd rather our enemies take it on the chin than us.

Thanks Casey, for illustrating the need for an electoral college. McCain is awesome. Anyone who sticks to the law has got my vote. Because then you always know what to expect, and the law can be changed in the proper manner if you disagree with it.

And one more thing, isolationism worked for our country before. We should reinstitute this policy. **** everyone else. We won't bother them at all, we can stay friendly. We just won't help or expect help.

Interesting (and disappointing) that Wired chose to frame an agreement to obey the law as "a move to the left."

While I realize that the Republicans have worked hard to make you believe that breaking with party line makes you a liberal, in fact there is very little that could be considered conservative (or 'right') about the war or the vast expansion of the size of the government we've seen over the last 7 years.

Obeying the law is neither right nor left, it is merely the sworn duty of all public officials.

Hooray for isolationism!

Yeah, with trillions of dollars worth of trade each year with the rest of the world and the necessity to feed a resource hungry economy, let's not protect our interests in other parts of the world!

If you're not doing anything bad why care if uncle sam is listening? Who cares. I have nothing to hide...listen all you want to me talking to my girlfriend about my day at work.

McCAIN 08!!!!!!!!!!

Hooray for the billions of dollars we spend on keeping Africa alive each year when they continue to drink fecal water and kill each other anyway!

Hooray for free trade not depending on giving free money away! Good relations are built on keeping business promises and providing good products and business, Vick, not on keeping dying countries alive. That's just fighting evolution.

To say that we should factor in the international community's response to our national goals when considering what is and is not beneficial for us is not to say that we should crawl under a rock and be glad that we can hide. Most of your examples would not cause people to engage in suicidal attacks against America. Many of the things I suggested, however, would incite a normal, rational person to kill themselves for revenge. Do any other countries require permanent military bases in multiple foreign countries across the globe? Consider why America, alone, has this problem of being attacked by far-away "bad guys".

Rather than taking action against that which "threatens" us (as if Saddam actually had the power to hurt us...) perhaps we should not do those things which *cause* other people to threaten us. There is this notion that pre-emptive/preventative war is a good thing. I assure you that the costs of such unnecessary wars (in terms of *creating* the enemies that you end up fighting later) will outweigh any benefits. Why kill old enemies when it only creates new ones? Work with them towards a compromise and then there won't be enemies any longer. No more fear of attack, no reason to have permanent military bases in other sovereign countries.

Also, international law generally states that we can only invade another country if that country actually attacks us. "Threatening" is not a valid reason for committing assault in the US, either. This is why the Cold War era had to be fought via proxy wars in other countries, where the US and the Soviet Union would fund extremists in foreign countries to fight covert wars in completely separate countries.

These proxy wars created the enemies that you now claim require us to control the world. Had we not fought those unnecessary "pre-emptive/preventative wars" back then, we wouldn't have to fight them now.

"The best way to avoid becoming the target of terrorism is to stop doing things that piss people off."
...
And that is not appeasement? We won't pursue our national goals because they might piss others off.

- Its not appeasement because we are not relinquishing land or bestowing any special benefit on the perpetrators.

We won't pursue missile defense because the Russians will get pissed off.
...

- That's not why, we shouldn't pursue missile defense because it will make us invulnerable, so other countries will develop more destructive arms to get around our defenses. "Wars" will just be mass annihilation of whoever pushes the button first. Bad policy.

We won't pursue securing our energy SLOCs because it might piss off the Iranians.
...

- Rather than trying to find the last tapering remnants of oil, we should be focusing on the next source of energy we can harness, since either way, in 50 years there won't be enough oil to sustain our present consumption levels. Once again, nothing to do with the Iranians. Its just bad policy.

We won't support Britain because it might piss off the Argentinians.
...

- It wouldn't. The Argentinians hold no grudges for the Falklands.

We won't forward deploy the military at Guam and Japan because it might piss of the Chinese.
...

- We're the only country with military bases abroad (not referring to Guam, here though). Why do we need those bases when no one else does? This is ridiculous, offensive policy that undermines national sovereignty and democratic values. We should absolutely withdraw our troops and only garrison within our borders.

We won't use the word "jihad" because it will piss off the jihadis.

- Why would it piss off the jihadists, now? You are trying to argue from absurdity to prove a non-point. If people weren't arrogant jerks like you, maybe we wouldn't be having the troubles we're having now.

against Americans -----
you're missing the point, people

it's not AGAINST Americans, but AGAINST the enemies OF Americans.

how about we elect Obama who accidentally slips and calls us the "57 states"? Not.
....wow, talk about patriotism.

Vote Obama, or we'll all suffer through another four years of idiotic tyranny.

End topic.

DCX2: If you knew anything about world relations, you'd realize we are in a world economy. We owe money,yes, but as a % of our GDP it's very low compared to the EU, the UK, China, and other major world powers.

What does a rich man owe to society? Why does a rich man have to give his own money to some crack addict getting welfare? Some woman who popped out her 13th baby and is married to her 9th husband, who is too stupid to get a job? Why?

Vick - Adolf Hitler, are you really comparing Obama to Adolph Hitler? Grow up, get an education and stop trying to sensationalize everything. "Oooooh, I invoked Adolph Hitler, that will totally make it sound like I know what I am talking about." Stop talking out your a**.

No there aren't any connections. Does everyone who gives a good speech become an evil, facist dictator by default? What a moronic thing to infer.

I don't doubt that given the option to continue the wiretapping, it will still happen no matter who becomes president, however, I believe Obama will do it in a way that does not break the law. Like actually asking for warrants.

McCain is a moron. Watching his speech made me sick. When he tried to be smart, "That's not change we can believe in.", he didn't look like a presidential nominee, he just looked smug. He looked like a used car salesman. Sleazy as can be.

DCX2, let me get this straight. The crux of your argument is that if only we didn't try to take on the USSR, we'd be ok now? If we'd only rolled over like a dead fish against the onslaught of the communists, we'd be fine today?

If only we stop fighting the jihadis today, and let them do whatever they wanted, we'd be well off tomorrow?

If we don't interfere with the Iran getting nukes today, we'll be safer tomorrow?

If we let people who hate the US and threatens us modulate our actions, then they've already won the fight. As far as people willing to blow themselves up for their cause(s), please let them. As long as they do their deeds in their own countries and stay out of the US, they can blow themselves up till the end of time.

Two points:
Point 1: The US's right to freedom of action can't be dictated or limited by its enemies.

Point 2: Keeping terrorists out of the the US territory is of highest priority. Everything under the law has to be done to ensure that.

all those people that support dictator bush and mini-me mcbush must be drinking water from the same well, they have to be they spit the jive

Written by Julius
"If people weren't arrogant jerks like you..."

Ah yes. When people have no substantive points to make, they resort to name calling.

FAIL!
Thanks for playing, try again later when you get a clue.

Four more years, apparently.

Written by Shriver:
" are you really comparing Obama to Adolph Hitler"

If you'd be so kind as to read the posts above mine, you'd know the context in which it was presented.

Again, as with the vast majority of liberals, the bigger picture escapes you.

Jaun McLame i.e. Bush part duex. so I guess we will have a choice of...

Red State Facist ( McCain )

vs

Blue State Socialist ( Obama )

both working for the SAME CFR / Bilderberg / Globalist / World Bankers /Militarty Industrial Complex masters..

All you people on here still stuck in the FAKE Left / Right false choice paridigm need to WAKE UP!! and dont take my word for it do some reseach & you'll see the same truth...

this is Not about Left vs Right but about Freedom vs Tyranny!!

Because when FREEDOM is gone not much else will matter....

freedom to do what?

Well, McCain just lost my vote.

And one more thing... resource hungry economy we are... but a shortage of food we have. Why? Because we first burned it for nothing and now burn it as ethanol. Stop wastefulness, begin efficiency. McCain is my guy for this efficiency. Stop overproduction and underproduction!

Just a morsel of food for thought:

After 9/11, there has not been any attacks on US soil and many attacks have been intercepted and thwarted since then.

That is a tangible result of the Bush policies that the libs love to demonize. Sorry it doesn't sound as eloquent as a vacuous Obama speech that is devoid of any substance or results.

Carson - "married to her 9th husband, who is too stupid to get a job? Why?" ha, your imparting too much intelligence and morality to the welfare mama's. Since when do these kind of baby machines get married? Usually they are single, perhaps, they may live with "some dude" who only stays with them b/c he gets a free place to sleep, free chow and maybe a little nooky on the side. These women allow it b/c no ambitious guy in his right mind would want anything to do with a dumbass baby machine who wasn't smart enough to keep her legs closed way back after number 2 or three or four. I know b/c I live in a city where pregnant 14 yo's and their brood are almost everywhere. Bottom Line - The state ends up paying for the whole ugly mess, and Obamamessiah would be right in there reestablishing the welfare state and all the "feel good" fantasy that goes with it.

I agree, we need to be more efficient and less wasteful and less dependent on oil. But in the mean time we need vast quantities of resources and no one is going to ensure that we get other than us.

Carson: Of course it is natural to have *some* debt. What I point out is that in order to avoid letting war funding be scrutinized appropriately, Congress passed emergency supplemental spending bills (even though the wars have been going on long enough that we ought to be able to budget this the way it's supposed to be done). In order to finance these supplemental bills, the US Treasury needed to sell a lot of debt to other countries like China.

Again, it's not that we owe other people money. It's how rapidly we have come to owe them even more money. And for what purpose? Destroying Iraqi power plants and hospitals?

What does a rich man owe society? How about the people who allow him to buy things by staffing cash registers? Or shipping his goods and groceries to the store? Owning the gas stations which bought the pumps which they use for society? The people who built and maintain our roads and bridges? Those who built the telecommunications infrastructure using tax dollars?

Yes. What does a rich man owe to society. Instead of focusing on how everyone is connected and how we all can benefit from each other, you focus on rare cases of extreme abuse, such cases which could be handled with proper oversight of the process (unfortunately, oversight isn't something our government is very good at right now...) Believe it or not, some people on welfare are screwed by things beyond their power (like losing a limb fighting unnecessary wars for their country). We're the richest country in the world, and veterans of former wars can't get adequate health care because people like you are scared that someone somewhere might abuse the system.

Vick: "DCX2, let me get this straight. The crux of your argument is that if only we didn't try to take on the USSR, we'd be ok now? If we'd only rolled over like a dead fish against the onslaught of the communists, we'd be fine today?"

You were onto something there with the first question, but then you blew it with the second one. At no point did I say "roll over like a dead fish". Rather, I suggested not paying a bunch of Afghanis behind the scenes to wage war against people that the Soviets were paying behind the scenes.

There is a particular Wired column I love to share with people, called One Million Ways to Die.

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/09/71743

Your appendix is more likely to kill you than al-Qaeda. Why don't we spend hundreds of billions of dollars on a Global War on Appendicitis?

Priorities, man. Priorities.

Scarecrow - yes, "freedom to do what?" Go to porno shops? join groups like NAMBLA? "Purchase child porno? It's about time you guys give some of your little self-centered perversions and realize that there are far bigger issues to deal with, the world does NOT revolve around you! Frankly, if the Govt wants to spy on me, they can knock themselves out (especially if that means I don't have to worry about getting blown up on a train going to work) What have you got to hide, eh! (-:

DX2,
Last time I checked, my appendix wasn't threatening the strategic interests of this country nor did it take part in killing thousands of Americans.

Speaking of Americans dieing, did you know that more Americans die each month in car accidents than by the attacks on 9/11? Shocking, I know. Yet we are going after terrorists with so much money instead of trying to get cars off the roads.

Also, did you know that more Americans die each year from eating bad food than the number of soldiers that have been killed in Iraq in over 4 years? Why is no candidate declaring war on bad food or parents organizations protesting improper food handling?

The people that say they are going to vote for McCain because Obama is black make me sick.
You fuckers will get what you deserve.
After watching McCain semi-conscisiously stumble thru his speech at a VFW hall full of geriatrics, then watching Obama electrify a crowd of 20,000 and exude power and cool confidence, I have hard time comprehending why anyone would want McCain to lead the country as opposed to Obama.
But then again, you retards voted Bush in twice so I shouldn't be suprised. Geez!

"We are at war. The "rhetorical" wars are legal wars, not rhetorical ones.
They are genuine declairations of war. You just haven't had the pleasure of ever seeing one up close.

They push the limits of authoritative control domesticly as being a state of emergency allowing the use of martial law powers outherwise unavailable. That is why there is a war on drugs. A war on the poor, a war on education. a war on the weather, and a war on the middle class. I am pretty sure they started a major war on hunger recently.

The hungry will fall like bowling pins before our mighty onslaught! Go! John McCain Go!
"

Uhm, you are aware that under the Constitution that it requires the President to go to Congress and ask for a declaration of war to be made don't you?

I don't remember that declaration. I do remember Congress approving military action in Iraq, but there was never war declared, so therefore, no we aren't at war and therefore the President does not have any wartime powers.

Vick - and I'm sure more Americans die from smoking each year then died on 9/11. So your point is....? To die from car accidents is, unfortuantely, a part of motorized travel, to die from cancer or too many burgers is the result of engaging in bad habits, but to die from terrorist bombs in one's own country is NOT a normal part of living in our society. You are comparing apples and organges, but don't seem wise enough to tell the difference.

I agree, giving electrifying and vacuous speeches to a throng of mindless drones should be the number 1 qualification for being president.

Vick, I agree with many things that you have said. It's clear we're on the same side (the one to save America, NOT just to do whatever we want and get free money doing nothing, turning our country into a socialist wasteland). The one thing I don't agree with is the way you cite numbers. Yes, more people die in car crashes and from food poisoning, and I'm sure accidents around the home as well, than in 9-11. The point is, one of them can be prevented by good government relationships and policies and the other can not. People getting driver's licenses when they should not is another issue entirely.

curio5o,
Read the fcuking context in which I said what I did.

In any case, you're right that dieing in car crashes is a part of trying to live a normal life. But dieing at the hands of terrorists isn't. There fore, should the govt do everything in its power to prevent what is emminently preventable? Like dieing at the hands of terrorists?

Ignorance leads to liberalism.

Vick: "After 9/11, there has not been any attacks on US soil and many attacks have been intercepted and thwarted since then. That is a tangible result of the Bush policies that the libs love to demonize."

Terrorist attacks like those British guys who were going to blow up a plane using liquids, despite the fact that none of them had any plane tickets and most didn't even have passports and a scientific experiment based on their method would (if they were lucky) rival that of a small firecracker? (and by the way, they weren't caught via any extrajudicial GWOT powers, but good old fashioned police work)

Or Jose Padilla, who was charged with the attempt to set off a dirty bomb that he didn't have?

Or the "plot" to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge, which was deceptively used as a justification for warrantless NSA surveillance despite the NSA having nothing to do with apprehending Iyman Faris?

Or the "Seas of David" cell, who were probably just scamming their FBI informant who infiltrated their group out of cool stuff? Even the FBI says they were "more aspirational then operational."

Indeed. Thank you President Bush for trampling all over my civil liberties so that you can "protect" me from people who either lack the ability to hurt me or who we can otherwise catch through perfectly lawful means.

DCX2 makes a good point. In the United States, foreign terrorists have been able to kill a grand total of about 5,000 people in 75 YEARS! Or, even longer than that actually.

They just are NOT a danger in a world where CAR ACCIDENTS EACH YEAR KILL 10,000 PEOPLE!

Terrorism is being used as a 'whipping boy' in order to make us give up our rights. And let's look at history: most of the terrorists, we have CREATED OURSELVES.

We were allies with Osama at one time. We were allies with Saddam at one time. We were even THINKING OF BEING ALLIES WITH HITLER, just before the attack at Pearl Harbor by the Japanese!
We create our own problems with our obsessive meddling with military forces in other countries conflicts, and support of one side over another.

Vick,
I'm a reformed Democrat, by the way, now a liberal Republican. Liberal and conservative are often used incorrectly. Really you can think of it as liberal meaning extremely and conservative meaning kind of. So a conservative Democrat is closer to a moderate than a Liberal one, as with Republicans. I'm not necessarily explaining this to you, but to everyone. I agree that your vehicle-911 argument is valid. They are both things that can be, and possibly should be, controlled. However, they are in different areas, one in national defense and the other lies with state government.

Vick - Maybe we do agree. Seeing as the Govt. takes it upon itself to govern and tax us, absolutely! They failed on 9/11, and now we all must change our way of life b/c of this. They damn well better do everything in their power to protect us, and if that means some libs will be inconvenienced, too f-ing bad.

Vick - I read those posts and yours. My response to YOUR post was spot on.

Here's a question for you. Why is it that we are reviled as a nation? Why? Why are we even the target of terrorism? Is it because we embrace Democracy? No.... It's because our country embraces the foreign policy of Imperialism. You proscribe to the current administrations impractiacal view that we can crush all of our enemies through the use of force and force alone. It would be nice to have allies in this fight, and if we keep going the way we have been, soon we may not have any.

DX2,
What civil liberties of yours has been specifically trampled on?

Please be as specific as possible. I understand that this may be outside of your talking points.

Don't even get me started on airlines. That's not something that can really be controlled by the government. They can try, but in the end, our safety lies with the lobotomy patients working at OHare. And I don't care who is in office, Democrat or Republican, as long as they follow the law to a "T". Republicans just have a better track record for that, and McCain's is way better than Obama or Clinton's. Um, why did her husband come out of office worth millions more than he went in? And why were priceless artifacts missing? Coincidence? I think not...

Show business - "Selling the talentless to the tasteless" Politics "Selling the clueless (read Obamassiah) to the equally clueless (read libs)

Vick: Your appendix might not be killing people, but you're missing the point. Look at the magnitude of the problem compared to the associated costs. There are better ways to use our country's power.

Seriously, you're comparing terrorist threats to car accidents and food poisoning. If you really think that those problems do not require resources to reduce the loss of life, then how can you justify squandering those resources in areas where there will be even *less* gain?

We DID NOT FAIL ON 911. 911 is a problem stemming from years ago... from the time we put dictators in power (yes, the USA put dictators in force), gave them weapons, and said, ok, we'll leave you alone, we failed. THEN, not on 911. Once again, isolationism. Had we not messed in affairs that were not ours this would not have happened.